LOVE and DEATH 2026: Keeping Close (Part 5A)

Thank you for listening to UPIA's Dharma podcast, an extraordinary series of talks from some of the finest teachers in the world. I'm Joan Halifax, founder of the UPIA's End Center, and we're happy to make these podcasts available to you. Please consider making a donation so we can offer these recordings freely. You'll find a donation button on our podcast page. And thank you so much. This is Dharma Podcast at DharmaPodcast.org. This is episode number 2670. It was recorded on September 21, 2026. And it is part 5A, the closing session of a multi-part series titled Love and Death 2026. This episode is titled Keeping Clothes Part A. The speakers for this episode are Frank Ostasevsky and Joan Halifax. And I remember a teacher of mine used to say, well, practice, no, enlightenment is an accident. Practice makes you accident prone. And it's really true. Honestly, this is one of those funny things where the more you do it, the more it serves your own spiritual formation. Another question had to do with bodhicitta, wanting to help people. And it's very interesting, again, going back to Sasuki Roshi, no gaining idea. But there's a very interesting view in the Mahayana tradition. And that is the relationship between the cultivation of bodhicitta, this deep heart of awakening that is completely unselfish, that is dedicated to mitigating the suffering of others. Where you're off your self-improvement program. And you're not trying to get a bodhisattva button for being such a great person, right? But getting there is really challenging. And the reason is that we are so transactional that the way our economic system is structured, it's like what can we get kind of thing? Like I want to get enlightenment. Remember one of my Zen teachers, or a Zen teacher said, you must get enlightenment. I'm like, ah, I don't want to get anything. I'm trying to get loose of all that. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's just completely counter-intuitive. So this is this just really powerful deconstruction of our self-centeredness to be aware of what's going on in our own subjectivity, but to actualize that we're not separate from any being or thing. And because we're so naturally self-referential, I mean it's about my mind, so to speak, my property, my ideas, and so forth. My problems, my suffering, and etc. We have this self-referentiality just drilled into us from the very beginning. It's all about me. And it's really tough to begin to reshape our experience of who we are, which is not separate from the person next to us who's suffering, and not separate from all those suffering beings in realms that countries that are being bombed, or environments that are being exploited and extracted. And when we say open front, it is that sense of being connected with everything, truly everything, not just myself. It's all about me. Our little tragedy, which probably is the case. You know, we have a really hard time, but the other side of the equation is the way that we heal it. As I said yesterday, what Tick-Nott Hans, hey sweetheart. As I said yesterday, Tick-Nott Hans' prescription for this couple who are having terrible troubles was go to India and work in a leprosy. And we don't do that in order to be praised, you know, to get a Nobel Prize or something. We do it as part of practice with that kind of intention. But after a certain place that opens up in your life, something else appears. And that is just this natural care, free of anxiety. And the sense of ease and with the hand extended. And sometimes that hand is the hand that's kind of, you know, tough. Sometimes it's super tender. That's the other thing about compassion. It's not necessarily very sappy. You know, Frank and I both have the experience of having very strong boundaries. And also when someone says something that is just not necessarily aligned with what our experience is of saying, is that really true? And, you know, setting that sensibility is not just being a, you know, a squashy blob. So, again, moving out of our economic structure of what can we get out of this? And it's more, how can I actually open my life? Not getting something, but it's who I really am. Open my life to who I really am. And part of it is, you know, serving others. I think Ram Dass love serve, remember? You know, he said that so many times. How can I begin to deconstruct this ego, which is causing me to twist in the wind and cause others to twist in the wind too? So there's the relative perspective, you know, of actually as training, just like being in the kitchen. In Zen, there's a beautiful phrase in Japanese, mu-jo-do-no-taigen. It means actualizing the way in your everyday life. And you think you have to just be in Sunday school or Sabbath, you know, go to temple. And then the rest of the time you're a frantic, you know, tyrant or something. Our everyday life, it's in the details of our everyday life that awakening happens. Not that many stories in Zen about awakening, by the way, we don't use the word enlightenment, by the way. We typically use the word awakening. Because you're already fundamentally, it's there. I mean, you're just waking up from this creation of the ego. So, you know, not so many stories in the koans are where people are sitting with, you know, cross your legs and hope to die in the Zendo kind of thing. You guys didn't get the joke. I would have heard that one before. Yeah. That's good. Now I lay me down to sleep. I pray the Lord my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the Lord my soul to take. Ah. Cross your legs and hope to die. You know, that's not so much where awakening happens. It's in a way where training happens. But it's where, you know, this site of a peach blossom or the sound of a stone thumping on bamboo. I mean, it's in these ordinary moments where, poof, suddenly this small self begins to drop away. And you just see deeply into the life of things. If I could quote Wordsworth. There you go. Thank you. I often do. Yeah. So this is, I'm reflecting on some of the questions that came up in the Zaza this morning. And, you know, I wanted just to touch into those questions. They're wonderful questions. And the last thing I want to say, because so many of us are doing types, we feel that we need a kind of anchor, a thing to do to get to where we are. It's so funny. And in a certain way, it's helpful to have an anchor. So, you know, Wendy or Frank or I or Flynn or Koto or other, you know, others who, sorry, my knee is popping. You know, it's a new, it's a- Is all that crossing your legs? No, actually, it's all that coming down the side of mountains directly. No, I'm good. I just need to, I got it. So, it's wonderful to use an anchor as a way to allow your attention to rest on something and to stabilize. But ultimately, whether it's in the Tibetan context or the Theravadan context or the Mahayana context, the three main schools of Buddhism, it is that capacity to drop into this quality of openness that sometimes is called choiceless awareness, where you're just, you're resting in awareness and phenomena are arising. Thoughts, feelings, sensations, we secrete them because we're in this body-mind thing. But we're not grasping and we're not pushing away. And this is what is so, a upaya skillful means is to give, you know, instructions where there's kind of anchor or you can rest your attention on those instructions, either to yourself or listening to others. But ultimately, it is coming home to this quality of relaxed, alert openness where the field of phenomena are simply unfolding in the natural condition of things. And this is what presence is. It's not pushing away. It's not grasping. It's coming alongside, it's being with, but not being hijacked by. And we are so materialistically oriented. We kind of get all involved in the small stuff. But I do want to say one thing. A lot of us have issues. We come from complicated situations besides which we've been conditioned to think about ourselves only. You know, we're the center of somebody's universe either for too much love or too little. So I think therapy is good for Western people. I really do. If you have a Buddhist therapist who has that, you know, the bigger perspective about formation and where you're not caught in, you know, just the story all the time and where your identity is it wrapped up in your identity as somebody who is sad or traumatized or who's suffering horribly, but where your identity begins to expand, to open, to include. So, you know, I did psychoanalysis, Jungian therapy, and then I did a ton of other kind of, it's very helpful. You know, back in the day, 50 years ago. So that was great. And it really helped my practice. But also what made a huge difference in my own therapeutic experience was my practice. Because I realize having a view, seeing the truth of impermanence where I'm not, I don't believe, my terrible story right now is going to be with me forever. Impermanence will prevail. Or I am the one who really makes the difference here. And guess what? Ultimately what you discover, there is no separate self-identity. Ooh, wow, that was a mistaken identity, so to speak. So, you know, when we talk about love and death, in a way, these are the realizations that are so critical. There is no separate self-identity. And also, there's no such thing as certainty and permanence. And can we open to that groundlessness in a way that we're not consumed by fear, but by the sense of surprise and mystery and delight and love? And can we meet death in that way? And I just want to mention one other thing. I think some of you know I had to, I'm tired of telling the stories. Probably the last work Shaco and I mentioned it, but still it's with me. I had two open heart surgeries 12 days apart. Was it 13? I don't remember, anyway. And last June, a year ago, June, I'm still in recovery, so I have to lay down a lot actually. So thanks, Frank. I was back there. But, and fully attentive. I can hear you. You know, but supine. My body is just, you know, hasn't healed yet. It just really, I had, it was bad. But it was interesting. But, you know, Wendy can tell you during this course of hospitalization, I was at Stanford. I was at Stanford for a month in the hospital in the ICU, a long time. I was just, I was in a state I could not add fear or anxiety to what was happening. I was so peaceful and so accepting, but one thing actually bothered me. I got tired of the phlebotomists showing up at three in the morning. And it was like, let me have my sleep. But, you know, and also my veins aren't so, you know, so. So that, that was like the one glitch. But all the other stuff that was happening to me, the body wasn't happening to me. It was happening to the body was just as it was. This is happening. Now this is happening. Now this is happening as it is. That any resistance that I would put up would actually degrade me. And I have actually probably contributed to my demise, which was at issue at that point. I tell that story because even in the middle of a catastrophe. I really felt the benefit of practice. You know, unlike Rondas, he had a stroke and just saw the pipes up there. I feel like I did see death and release. I was, you know, called back to continue a little bit longer. And it's, I feel that practice was the means for me to actually meet that situation. But I didn't practice for that. And that I want to be clear with you about. That's not why I practiced. And nor did I practice to make myself a better person. Nor did I practice to end the suffering of all beings. I practiced because it was the only thing I could do because that's what was necessary. Not why, but what was necessary. I was called into it. And I would just say to you who have a practice. This is not seriously, I have to say to you, this is not tourism. This is your whole life. What it means to be a true human being. It's not putting your toe in. It's putting your whole life into what it already is in. Please understand that. So I want to just say hi. And we have important work as a community to do together. But Frank and I want to spend just a few, few moments touching in with you all. If you have any outstanding, but please going to essence questions or so on. And then at exactly 930. Yeah, 930, then we'll reset the room quickly. Yes, Koro. So I got that. I saw that. Listen, your hearts and minds, what's been bubbling up for you in these days. And who is online. You always got somebody here in the room. Okay, start with the room first and then we'll call. I understand because I can't see you either. I'm still seated. Good morning. What came up for me started last night and continue this morning after the Zazan. First of all, of course, as we all are, I'm so very grateful to you, but I also have even a larger appreciation now than ever before of what a difficult job you have. Because even in communicating what you're trying to communicate, you have a big obstacle since all of us hear things very differently. We have different constructs. So for example, last night, as Frank was showing us those incredible photographs of the deceased and asked us to react to them. We had such different views because some of us looked at things from a very zoomed out macro perspective and others really zoomed into the details. Whereas it's not that the details didn't matter because they always do, of course, especially at that stage. So when we talk about these things, I am now hyper aware of how there might be a lot that I'm missing because we're all coming from different places. And as you try to communicate all of these incredible lessons you wish for us to take home, it must be extremely difficult for you as well to choose these words. One that has troubled me. Wait, wait. No, not at all. Does it not? Perfect. How come? Well, there was a text. See, here we go. An assumption I should not have made. Thank you. So I would love to know how you don't feel that way at first. How what? How it is that you don't find it difficult to find words that you find really land mostly the way you wish for them to land on all of us with such different backgrounds and levels of understanding. So I don't actually look for words. Okay. I just do my best. And sometimes my best lands and sometimes it falls horribly. And you know, I just accept I do the best I can based on, you know, more than a half a century of failing. All right. That's that helps me. Because then maybe I can also be a bit more forgiving of myself when I try to communicate. But the one word that has really troubled me and in fact, Roshi Jones since I came across you in person first last year in February in Costa Rica and it has been on my mind ever since I'm delighted to have this chance to bring it up. Finally, the word selfless and selfish really tripped me up in this entire spectrum of what we're trying to teach. And it may be because of my own construct and it probably very much is because I find that depending on your definition of self, nothing could be selfless. Right. Just take a breath. Take a breath. Please. Thank you. I need it. I've been this while left since this morning actually. Wait, wait, wait, wait. Take your breath. Thank you. Hold on. Hold on. Just let's all take a breath with our sister here. And what's your question? This morning, there was a lady who another new friend of mine here reminded me is called Janice, the lady who spoke online. And she brought up this topic that is always irritating me somehow. And calling what we do that benefits others even at a cost to ourself or not as selfless seems to always really, I find it agitating for me for some reason. Okay. Got it. So let me just, can I make a recommendation? Please do. I've written a book called Standing at the Edge. I've just started it. If you would read the altruism chapter, it might be helpful. Okay. Thank you so much. Breath. Good morning. Thank you for everything this weekend. I have a question. I find this concept of groundlessness pretty challenging sometimes. And I find that I do need an anchor. And so I usually go back to loving awareness and sitting in love. And that is usually helpful. So then what is groundlessness? If you need to add love to it. So in the simplest way we could say awareness. That is when we're in this experience of open awareness or choiceless awareness. There's no place where we're getting stuck where we're getting pinned. But I can understand, you know, I think I understand why groundless is uncomfortable. So, you know, our prescription would be come back to your anchor. Ram Dass used to use loving awareness in his teachings. And we always teased each other. He was loving and I was aware. But hopefully I'm a little loving too. I am so. And he was a lot of awareness too. So, you know, I think it's really important in the first decade, 50 years or so, you know, to have an anchor to come back, you know, at the breath or loving awareness or a phrase, you know, something that allows for your, you to get stable. And this is the sense of safety inside. And then, you know, once that kind of concentration has been cultivated, which is very difficult in our speedy, graspy do it, got to get it all done culture. It's we are conditioned otherwise. So, you know, once that sensibility opens up, then you come into this quality of spaciousness. And, you know, sometimes here we use this, you know, bring your attention to your breath, kind of sliding on the outbreath to that gap at the end of the outbreath, where you can just rest in openness before the natural next inhalation happens. And that is a very powerful experience of exactly the place that is not you're not anchored on the breath. You're you're just in space, you're just in the gap in openness. And that's a place to touch into that. You know, and so often, you know, if I have a bunch of things kind of coming at me is the sort of habit here and so on and so forth and people. And I'm like, you know, and then I'll come into this space of the Zendo or I'll get back to my little room at Vimala. And then, you know, I'll actually bring my attention to my breath and then on the exhale. It's like the feeling of sliding into openness. And it's an actual sensation. And there's this kind of freedom. Then the inhale, that's the last thing you do before you die, by the way, is that exhale and then the openness. But then since we're not there yet, the next inhale arrives naturally. And so it's that sensibility. You begin to train yourself. Ah, resting, you know, with the anchor, sliding on that outbreath into the gap. Actually, I think we better take somebody online for just a minute. If you don't mind. Yeah. Yes. I'll unmute you. You're muted, Jill. I, yeah, I've become very aware of how my disenfranchised grief shadows my ability to have compassion for others. And in particular, it's come up this weekend hearing people who have had great loves and lost them. Because for me, that's one of my greatest pains that I have not yet experienced that. And so I find myself not feeling the compassion that I might think I am capable of because it's such a deep pain for me. And, um, and I thank both of you for creating such a safe space here that I can share this. And I love both of you and appreciate you both so much. Okay, who's not on your right side? That's magic. I say so. What does magic teach you every single day? Love on condition. That's it? Hi, magic. Aww. How does everybody feel? Sensing into magic. May you keep experiencing, discovering different expressions of love? It's magic. Thank you. Thank you both. Yeah. Okay. Anyone else who hasn't spoken before? Yeah. This is just, this is to, um, just turn it on at the bottom. Thank you. This is an expression of gratitude for the, um, ways that, sorry, no surprise. Button the chair. The ways that you, um, allow the body to be such an important part of our practice. Yeah. And, um, yesterday was very full. It was quite the workout. And I had this