Zhao Zhou's Mu: The Threshold of Everyday Practice

Thank you for listening to UPIA's Dharma podcast, an extraordinary series of talks from some of the finest teachers in the world. I'm Joan Halifax, founder of the UPIA's End Center, and we're happy to make these podcasts available to you. Please consider making a donation so we can offer these recordings freely. You'll find a donation button on our podcast page. And thank you so much. This is Dharma Podcast at DharmaPodcast.org. This is episode number 2672. It was recorded on September 30th, 2026. And it is titled, Zao Zou's Mu, the Threshold of Everyday Practice. The speaker for this episode is Shenzhen Palma. So, good evening everybody. Good to see you. Hello people on YouTube. I hope that we have some people watching this Dharma talk. Welcome to this UPIA. It's a pleasure to know you. And also, I'd like to know to greet into Roshi, Roshi Joan, the avid and founder of this wonderful Dharma refuge, UPIA's End Center. So, how are you? How are you doing? Good. How is the rain for you? It's good, no? People won't believe when we say, oh Santa Fe is very dry. So, in 24 hours, almost a little over 24 hours, we are going to be in practice period. And how many people are here for the first time in UPIA? Welcome. Okay. And how many people are not familiar with Zen? Everybody is familiar with Zen? Maybe one or two? Okay, so we are coming to this practice period for over three weeks. And we are going to be exploring the study, the teachings of the Zen master, Joshua or Jaju in Chinese. And I heard the last week, a sensei flint talked about some, some quants and some stories about the teacher Jaju. And so we are in this kind of momentum, you know, warming up for the practice period. And so we are going to explore all his teachings. And then I'm going to talk tonight, one, I have a request, somebody request to talk about the classic and famous quan mu. The Jaju dogs, the, so the quan is, those the dog has a Buddha nature. And Jaju answer mu. Okay, so that's going to be the core of the teaching, but I'm going to talk later. But before that, so I just want to take you with a little journey, you know. For me, when I read those, the ancient texts like a dog, or a quine, or the teachings of Joshua, or all the golden age of Zen master in China, it's not easy to read with this kind of mind, the mind that we have right now. So because we're reading those texts, we demand that we have right now, maybe it can get boring, or sometimes can be misinterpreted, or maybe it can get confusing. And so sometimes for me, reading those texts, I had to imagine those times. How was those times? What was happening at that time when these masters grow or taught to those people? So that's what I like to imagine, or to, I'm going to tell you what was going on in that time, in the humankind, when Joshua was walking on this earth. And it's very interesting. And so doing some research, so we are talking about the 8th century, 8th or 9th century. So it's a long time ago, really long time ago, over 1,000 years ago. So we have completely different mind conditioning. I think we have different attachments. So in that century, so the time it was a massive global transformation. So defined by the rapid race of Islamic war, a golden age in China, and the foundation of medieval Europe. So that was when going on. And so in the Islamic war, so there was a lot about knowledge and science, and Baghdad became a global hope for learning advanced math, medicine, astronomy, and it was the invention of algebra. So I learned that at that time that was when humankind invented the algebra. So in China, in Tang Dynasty, it was the golden age. So here in the Americas, it was the civilization of the classic period of the Magyars. So the Magyars were over here. So you have quite a picture of what was going on. So in the Tang Dynasty, so there is from the 600 to 900. So it's widely considered the golden age of Chinese civilization. So during that time in the eighth century, the culture reached its absolute peak, combining economic wealth with a massive boost of artistic and cosmopolitan creativity. So what was going on there? So maybe you hear about the Zilrall. So it was all this trade between Asia and the Western civilizations. So China has a foreign influence, but also in the religion and the philosophy, it was the Buddhist peak. So Buddhism enjoyed massive imperial patronage. So the state, it was supporting all the movement of Buddhism in that time. So resulting in the construction of grand temples and also carving of monumental statues like the Linshan Jambuda. I think we don't have any more of those. Is that right? I don't know if it's a moment, but there was this big, big statue, the Linshan Jambuda. The Linshan Jambuda. So in China there was really this blend of religion or spiritual paths, Buddhism, Taoism and Confucianism. So they could see, blend into influence, politics, art, and daily morality. And also in that time it was the woodblock printing. So it was the print. It was not good, but it was in China. It was the first one. So there was really forms of woodblock printing. So begin to merge, lie in the ground, work for the mass production of Buddhist texts and calendar. So thanks to that invention, so we keep some text. And at the same time there was the Chang movement. So it was then it was coming up. Then now later we know about then. You know, then is the Japanese word for Chang. So Chang give really a specific flavor to Buddhism. It's one of the specific flavors in Buddhism. It's one of the main schools. And in the 19th, Joshua and other teachers, like we name, really bring what we know about then. Now, the way how we try to approach or to teach. So that happened in that time when Joshua, so it was this and the time of Joshua. So there was this, let's say, no split, but there was this sense that there were two main schools of teaching. And you might be hearing her before and Dharma talks about the Southern school and the Northern school. So there were these two schools. And the Northern school, it was about the gradual enlightenment and the Southern school about sudden enlightenment. And also that's what we're coming into what is so important, this one practice of this one move. So and also there was this anti-ecolastic style. There were some practitioners that were no interesting to go into the academic practices or study the test. So in the 8th century progress, so Chan practitioners grew exhausted by the dense, overly academic language of older Buddhist schools. They shifted toward a highly practical, down to earth approach. That's what we have about Zen. It's really practical, direct practice. So there were rejecting rigid rituals, everyday concepts rather than memorizing massive Sanskrit texts. So in Quentos Dialogues, this era saw the race of eccentric, spontaneous teaching styles. Master would use paradoxes, shouting or sudden gestures to shock students out of the analytical thinking and force to a moment and pure awareness. So that is the gift. That was the gift of Chan movement about who is Buddha, what is Buddha, what is Nirvana. And so all these masters really practice where you are right now, right here, just wake up. So that was that was the technique. Very simple, indirect. So during that time, so the Chan mona series under when a profound transformation. So they shifted away from here when a state founded the institution and moving to the remote, rigid mountains of Southern China. So they went away and live like a hermit. So this gave rise to high salary, really on strictly organized communal life style that defined the golden age of Chan. So that's why coming the story of Samu, the residents that are doing Samu. So it's a very ancient practice to try to be self sustaining those monasteries. And then we come to Jaju or Joshua. So who was Joshua? He said that he was born in 778 and died to 897. So suppose he lived 120 years and he have very what to tell you. And then you can start understanding sometimes, you know, the Zen now what is what is happening, all these types of teaching. And then right now is big, big collage, big octel of teachings. But in that time, there were really specific teachers of teaching a specific method. So for example, Jaju, so he was very well known for the way how he talk, they call the lip-sand. So the, the, the, the statement that he, they came from his mouth really wake up people. So completely different that we have the other teacher, Linchi, that he will hit you, will shake you or he will shout you. So it was completely different technique. So, and that was around that time, you know, and, and, and, and if you trace the lineage of Jaju come from Nansen and Masu. So there was those teachers, they're really bringing it to the practice or embodiment practice. What we say all the time here in Uphaya about the embodiment, you're this body, you know, this body, this mind is the Buddha and this life is Nirvana. This is the path, is not a path that you are thinking to transcend or to get outside of this. So the word is here. So that was the point, the point that, so, so Jaju met, met his teacher and his teacher was Nansen or Nankuan Pujuan. And there is the famous, famous story of this encounter and it's about the ordinary mind is the way that maybe you hear last week. So that encounter, it was when, when Jaju became disciple of Nansen. And then even he studied with him. So, and Jaju entered into the monastic library at John Boy around 18, 18 years old. And so he met his lifelong teacher, Nansen, and he practiced and he, he was with, with Nansen until 57 years old and Nansen died. And he sent to stay in the monastery to teach. He went into pilgrimage. He went to continue visiting teachers, visiting monasteries to continue inquiring in his practice. After how many years, maybe over 20, 30 years of doing this practice. So that's what as a Zen practitioner you have to, to realize that you never end. You never end this. You think 10 years is enough so you have to look at Jaju. So he went to this great pilgrimage and he has a, and he faithfully, you know, bow bow to, and he say, even a seven year old child, if he has something to teach me, I will ask him. Even if he, 80 year old man, if he has something to teach him, I will instruct him. So that was Jaju. You can see the heart, very humble man, down to earth. So, and then when he arrived in the age of 80, he was assigned into a temple. And then so Jaju's career as a teacher finally began. He has set invitation to become the abode of one Jin Yuan, a small, a small and heavily neglected temple and in order in China. So he built the temple. He brought to the practice to the temple. He refused to live in Luzuri, keeping his monastery deeply rooted in the rural, self-sufficient lifestyle of the eight and non-centuristic movement. For his remaining 40 years, he instructed a small group and the abode monks using an incredible down to earth approach. Okay. I see that some people are sleeping now. So now it's coming to Kuan. Okay. So this Kuan, then what is the beauty of this Zen practice? So even in Buddhism, but more like one of the main characteristics of Zen is the interaction with another human being. So the whole stories of Kuan, of the stories that we are going to explore during this practice period is Jaju interacting with monks, with teachers. Through those interactions, two human beings trying to see the truth of what does it mean to be here, to be alive, to be in this body, living this life. What is this? Through those encounters, this is our relationship. And one helps to another to wake up. And that's the beauty of Zen. So Zen, you are not going to find it in the books. Then you're going to find it interacting with another human being. And that intimacy, that connection is what wakes you up. So here, so imagine, and there are so many stories. And also there are modern stories interacting with students with teachers. And sometimes the teacher is not trying to give you really a Dharma talk. It's really the way how the teacher holds the Dharma, how he behaves, how he embodies. That's what transmits to the students. And we see in the traditional monasteries, like I gave you an example, my first teacher, Samusuni, in the Seshins, in Mexico. So everybody went to the Sendo and Siren. And before to enter, he will adjust all the shoes, all the practitioners. He will enter. And the next session, and the next day, and the third day, what are you doing here? Get out, get out from the Sendo and fix your shoes. Wake up, and you wake up. So you see it. So by the embodiment of the Dharma, how a teacher treats another person. You know? So here, so you have this story of the Kwan. Imagine you had this monk and Jaiju. We don't know where they were doing. We don't know. Maybe they were walking. Maybe Jaiju maybe was working, cooking, or cleaning. We don't know where the activity around. Even we don't know if a dog passed by. Probably a dog was passing by the monastery. And maybe Jaiju was taking care of the vegetable garden. And the monk said, hey, does the dog have a Buddha nature? And then Jaiju said, no. He said, means no. But here is, this is the thing here. So what is a Kwan? Kwan is something that is noisy to understand, so to say. Something that is conflicted, contradictory. It's paradoxical. So why is this a Kwan? Because the teachings of the Mahayana Buddhism say that all beings have a Buddha nature. All sentient beings have a Buddha nature. So the dog has a Buddha nature. And the teacher said, no. Maybe if the monk asked to lynch, maybe lynch will hit the monk. Or shock him, no? Or shout out, you know? But it's quite, quite, let's see, it's quite a stupid question. But this Kwan, this Kwan is pointed out. Could you see maybe the monk just ruminating a bunch of stuff in his mind? Something this obvious while you ask to the teacher. And then to make it more hard for the monk. So just you say, no. He might be more perplexed and more confused. But here, this Kwan is a very classic Kwan. And all of us, when we practice that, we have to meet the monk. And we need to meet the teacher, to work with the teacher. But why is so great this Kwan? Because I'm not going to tell you the answer. But it's so great because when you practice this Kwan, it's not about the Buddha nature. It's just the warm mood. It means no. So basically you concentrate on this mood and this no. It's all whatever is telling you, your brain, your mind, is completely no. It's no. It's not that. It's not that. It's not that. No, no, no, no. Then you see the reality, what it is. But the reality, the teacher is going to mirror you. And this is just the beginning of your practice. What I mean by that? You realize that you have been practicing all these years with your head. That's what is this mood for. It's the bone for your idea about your practice, about that you have a spiritual practice. The idea about you are improving in your life and to become a better person. That's the whole move. To see that and to really learn and who you really are. Because the self wants something. And the self really showing, showing. And you give, sometimes you give up because it's too embarrassing or whatever. Because you don't want to be vulnerable. You don't want to open. You don't want to accept who you really are. So that's what it's so, it's a beautiful gate for this practice. And you are practicing and you are practicing and depends on your teacher. And then the story says you come and you present and the teacher ring the bell and you get frustrated. And you get more frustrated. And you get more anger. Or maybe you give up. Or maybe you say, oh, the teacher doesn't know. Whatever. It's just this self. It doesn't want to give up. The control. And to be just you. And to land to this reality. And it's very embarrassing when you discover this. When you experience this more. When you realize that you have been sitting with your head. When I did this one with my teacher. And finally I answer or presented or whatever. And he said, you see how easy it is. I was embarrassed. And it's not the end. It continues asking more questions. Because it's just the threshold that you realize that everything that you do, your practice is 24 seven. 24 seven. It's not the one hour that you come to this end to practice. That's why we have the idea in the beginning of our practice until we met more. And then the teacher is teaching you or mirror you. Move is 24 seven is this awareness. And what what women or the moon moon is a master who make who make the. The commentary and the traditional tense and the gay let's gay days. These quantities. Is the the first one he say to realize then you must pass through the gateway of the patriarchs. Just concentrate your whole body into this move. I appreciate it. Making your whole body one great dog block. They ignite. He digging into it. Do not miss in. Do not miss interpret. Is a as a not in this or boy in a philosophical sense. It will be like a shallow shower limb. So willing a red hot iron ball. You try to bomb it up, but you cannot. So these that you know what it is, but you cannot say anything. Because whatever you say is not this thing is just the beginner's mind. This is not knowing my that we need to trust. But because we have tremendous condition in our mind and on every day life and to know what is next. What is next? What is that? And more hearing. And America that we love to plan everything. Everything. And then when we when our plans go a little off. We get crazy. We're crazy and we're suffering. We suffer it. Oh man is raining. No, always sunny and you realize. The practices here and this right here right now just this moment. And it's gonna pass. And the question is, are you away or not? Are you away or not? Are you living it? Why are you not? Thinking that you are living your life. So that is the one is pointed out to this. And then when you experience. When you see the you don't have to explain everything. You have to talk everything or to get the practice through the intellect. So you open your senses. And you see the teachings beyond words and just you act. And for me is very, very interesting to see people here. Residents when they come. They come here and the resident program. So when when they come. They are here. If they don't see it. They don't see what is going on. They think that they see but and just playing. No, you enter your bow. All these instructions. And you you you as the teachings. Beside of this endo etiquette the Samu and and you roll as the housekeeping know. Or when the kitchen and your job and was still here. And there are no in their body. But with the past of the time and with this practice. You see is very inspired to see how they move. Just they see a paper tissue on the floor. They pick it up. But they see a door open. They close it or they see light on when the room is empty. You just turn it off. And the beginning they don't see all those things. And see if it's dirty. They don't see that is dirty. So because they land where is the field of practice. So the practice is no anymore. And the idea of a way and practicing. Is right here is what I have in front of me. And that's what is the gala gate. The the the Moon Moon say to realize saying you must pass through the gateway of the patriarchs. This gate this awareness this right here. Is not the idea is not the transcendent. Is not the the there is going to be better in the next moment. So I think that's enough. So this is the famous one. And to end. Is not about if it is not as a Buddha nature. Is about you. Do you have a Buddha nature? What is the what is the answer? It's nice move. Move. And also is pointed out to get out this realistic view of life. This subject and object. Is not to be one with everything. So do you have a Buddha nature? Yes. Okay. Yes. You have Buddha nature. Please not just yes. Is how you express that Buddh