I Don't Know, And I Know

This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at sfzc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. To know about meerkats. That, that creature? Yeah. My friend was boarding my posture and showed me some pictures of meerkats. Looking up and out, the whole body comes up naturally. Looking for predators. No doubt. I don't know what it's like to be a meerkat. I don't know if they need to settle down sometimes. I know that I do. So maybe as we sit upright and open into the awe and wonder and aliveness of being here in this very still and quiet room this morning to first settle into our bodies, running the breath in the belly, easing with the breath all the way out and all the way in from that low belly, as low as it wants, making room in the upper body to let the breath flow upright and open and relaxed. So the breath is unimpeded as it goes all the way down to the root and all the way out from the root. Relaxing our body. We relax our heart too and just let in the warmth, our natural tenderness and love for each other, for what's here, for this being and letting go of whatever ideas we can let go of, whatever's in the mind, just letting it fall away and then with open eyes and open ears and open pores, just receiving this being just being upright and open and empty in all of this light and sound and sensation together. Funny, you might think that to ground is to ground to connect with something that you know, but in Zen, the most grounded place we find is place of not knowing. It's somehow the knowing is like complicated. It's where all the stuff lives, you know. So even if we do some good knowing, it's still, it's just in that ballpark of all that stuff. So the ground we enjoy and practice intimacy from is that ground of empty, open, not knowing. Knowing comes and goes. There's no problem with the knowing. It's just not our ground. It's like the, it's just a flowing of light and sound, thought, sensation. So my name is Jiryu. I know many of you and some of you, I don't know. Thank you very much for coming today and whether you're here in person on a beautiful day at Gringelts or online, having I don't know what kind of day. Anyway, I'm humbled and grateful for your turning your attention to the Dharma and your trusting me to offer a few words of encouragement for our life of Zen, as we call it here, or just life for short. I saw some people in robes earlier this morning. I thought, why do we do that? And then I remembered it is something like grounding somewhere other than knowing. So anyway, there's a few things I want to try to talk about this morning and I appreciate your openness. And we'll see if any of this lands for you and hopefully have some time to share the way off and go on. Many of you have heard me over the last several months appreciating this, appreciating time, time as a gate to opening and entering into the reality, the unconstructed reality of our life. And there's this phrase that I've been turning from our Soto Zen founder in Japan, Dogen Zenji, who says the way this moment, this aliveness now, this yubingyu as it is now, is not carried over from the past and it is not merely arising now. Some of you heard me reflect on this, the way has not this being alive isn't at all stale. It hasn't gotten at all worn out from the past. It's not actually coming from the past. But it's also not just coming to be right now. So I've been really enjoying this teaching and really enjoying this question of, come on, Dogen, just give it to us straight here. Did it come from the past or is it just starting now? And I realized as I was thinking this over that this is a very funny thing I'm saying that I've been now for several months thinking about and working with this teaching that that they just started now. But I have been. So I get very excited feeling into this truth, the true aspect of our life that is just starting now. It just started. We just got here. Welcome to this thing. Apparently we're human beings. There's this planet we're on. Welcome. Nobody was here before to tell you to orient you. You may feel that. Let's do the orientation. Nobody could orient you because we all just arrived together. So I really enjoy that feeling. And it's, what's the word? Could be a little bit unhinged or ungrounded. Maybe you can picture somebody telling you, you know, grabbing you by the shoulders and saying, we just got here and you might not want to get in the car with them, you know, or have them plan an event for you. And yet it's like what more true thing could be said than that? What that touches about something that's overlaid with all of this knowing, all of this story about what this being is. And it's all true and it's all good and we're all responsible to it. But what is missing in our usual picture of being? That's why we wear the robes, I think. There's something missing in just this ordinary way where I'm a person and we're all people and we're vertical on this round earth and we're wandering around over time. I arrived on my birthdate, you know, and I'm kind of unfolding from there. That is absolutely the true thing about our life. It's insane to not acknowledge and be responsible to that. And yet if that's the only kind of mind we know, if that's the only way we're here, we're just missing something so real and true about what this experience of being alive is. So then has all these teachings that kind of push us to just remembering, remind us, yeah, I know the whole thing, yes, all of it true. But right now what is it actually like to be? And how did we forget that? And one of the kinds of things that might come out of touching what it's like to be is, I can't really say when this started, what would that even mean, you know, in this moment of being to say it came from before or it's going to somewhere later. If we're not grounding in that knowing, what would that even be? Do you know what I mean? So we talk in Buddhism, in Buddhadharma, there's this teaching of the middle way that we're always walking the middle way. In my study, I've been feeling more resonance with the view of the round way, the circle, the all-inclusive way, the way that totally includes these both sides of what we are, to not be confused by either, to not be that kind of wide-eyed, we just got here and not able to kind of snap out of it, you know? It's not, I think, where we want to be, although they seem to be having a fine time. So, but it's not authentic. It's not totally authentic. I'm going to try to say something about that. It's not totally authentic to just say, you know, I was born on my birth date and I've been unfolding ever since, and it's not totally authentic to say, this is really wild, we just got here. What's the way that includes all of that? The round way, the whole way, the middle way? So there's a story we have in our tradition, maybe a story familiar to many of you, of a person who was insistent on that there is no past or future and that what this life is, that we just got here, and his name was Hyakujo, and he lived in the distant past, like maybe eons ago, or at least many centuries before another Hyakujo, who lived in the Tang dynasty in China and was a great ancestor of our way of Zen practice, Hyakujo, or Bae-jeong. So in a long tradition of hapless abets, this hapless abit, the old Hyakujo tried to give a talk on a Sunday, and someone asked him some question, and he said, we all just got here, and I don't know if it was at that very moment, or just a few years later, that he turned into a fox and had to stay in the body of a fox for 500 lifetimes, and it seems like not one of the happy foxes. I think about the happy foxes, if you've seen have, do you see the one where they're in the snow, you know, and there's the mouse underneath, that seems like, I would do that for 500 lifetimes, and then there's like a delicious sandwich under there, such. But in this tradition, you know, for some reason you do not want to be a fox, so maybe somebody knew something that I don't know about what it's like to be a fox. So the sense of like, because you were pushing away the actual reality of that you're a person in time, and the stuff you do matters, and you're an ordinary person in the world, and you're responsible to that, because this teacher was so excited about the present moment that he didn't include that, then he had to be a fox for 500 lifetimes until he kind of got the idea, like, so he's there as a fox kind of reflecting on, I guess I just arrived here now, but how come I'm a fox? It's like, oh right, because something carried over from the past. So he started over these lifetimes to grow up, to mature. You know, some people read the story and say he was punished, but it's more like he just needed more training, needed 500 lifetimes as a fox to really get like, yes, you're just arising now. You were totally right about that, and also there's something you need to include, which is that you carried over from the past. Or as Dogen's enjie in his profound maturity puts it, it's not that it was carried over from the past, and it's not that it's arising now. It's not any of those things. You're trying to get a handle on the ungraspable being that includes all of it. So you say, I just started now, or I'm old and tired, because it's been going for a long time. Both of those are just trying to get some handle on the thing, the thing that we're doing together that we don't really know what it is, because we can't step out of it to know it. So this fox growing up, lifetime after lifetime, the story is vague on how he managed this, but then he shows up at a Dharma talk disguised as a human. So I'm always on the lookout. And he was able to have an exchange with our ancestor Bai Zhang, or Hyaku Zhou, which is the name of the mountain. So they're all named Hyaku Zhou, which is confusing. So he asks, he has an exchange with Hyaku Zhou, where he comes to realize that what he does matters, what he is, is just arising now, and it's carried over from the past. And he's liberated from the fox body. And then the Tang dynasty, Hyaku Zhou, in a beautiful kind of capping moment of that old story, gathers the assembly and says, we're going to have the funeral for an avid. And they go up in the mountains and find the body of the fox and hold an avid's funeral where the fox has been liberated from his idea that either he is just arising or that he's something that exists in time that you could get a handle on. So it's so important, you know, what this, what this old Hyaku Zhou is bringing, that truth of the immediacy of our life so we can see, you know, either that person who's a little bit unhinged, who's kind of in some altered state thinking that it's just the present moment, we could dismiss that because it seems kind of immature and we could dismiss Hyaku Zhou for saying there's just the present moment. But there's something so important for us there. What is this actually? Is it more like vertical people on a round big ball? Or is it more like, I don't know. I can't even say if I just got here or if it's coming from the past. So Suzuki Roshi tells this story as many Zen teachers do. Suzuki Roshi, the founder of this San Francisco Zen Center and Gringold Farm, tells Sahara Zen Mountain Center. He talks about this story and he says, I was asked by a student to speak about the relationship of one moment to the next moment. There are two ways to answer this question. One answer is that there is no relationship and the other is that there is a relationship. We can get away with so much. We beg you to hold this accountable. I'm laughing because if I have to say something, I always must say it in two ways. He doesn't want to be a fox. But to just say, oh yeah, I can tell you the relationship of one moment to the next is that they go one after the other causing each other. It would be selling short the Dharma to put it that way. It would not be helping somebody open to the ungraspable embodied reality of their aliveness. So then, so yeah, there is no relationship and there is a relationship between one moment and the next. So is there a relationship between one moment and the next? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If you stick to some dualistic understanding of yes or no, that will be the wrong answer because reality does not exist in that way. Yes is right and no is right too. Yes is not right and no is also not right. Reality, not reality in some sense other than our life, but the reality of our life doesn't exist in that way that you could say what it is or what it isn't. You can be it fully and it sure seems like we can be it half-heartedly, but it doesn't exist in the way of yes and no. So we try to appreciate and enter the stillness and openness, the non-grasping of Zazen mind, not reaching for any knowing, letting the reality be not yes or no to fully be this. We're trying to appreciate and the teachings help us to appreciate that we're layering a kind of view onto the situation that might be effective or true in its way but doesn't really reach. So there's another story that Suzuki Roshi comments on that I want to share briefly and then hear what you all have to say. Another famous story, kind of fundamental story in ZEN of the arrival of ZEN in China through the person of Bodhidharma who met the emperor. So here's how Suzuki Roshi puts this story, Emperor Wu of Liang asked Bodhidharma what is the first principle or what is the absolute truth of our life or like what's really going on here. You seem to know something and I'm the emperor so come on what's going on here. He's been holding it together pretty well you know all these years as emperor he founded a dynasty but he's like what's what is actually going on and Bodhidharma says there is no holy or common person so there's no there's no there's no holy person there's no common person that's a way of expressing what's really going on here it's not divided into like people who get it and people who don't no holy person no common person and the emperor said well then who are you in front of me and Bodhidharma said I don't know I think it's easy for me to to like not appreciate what it would be like to meet the emperor of China to have that kind of composure and that confidence in your being you're saying aren't you a great person aren't you a holy person I don't know what I am I just got here there's just this aliveness that I'm being together with you and I don't know and you can't make me know I'm not going to be intimidated into knowing saying all the sutras that he knew you know and then he went and sat in a cave for nine years maybe just to like recover from that it's just like I can't believe what just happened and to grow to grow the the composure you know part of why we're so we're so you know Zen of course is offering some teaching it's offering some framework the purpose of the framework is to like try to shine some light on and unhook us from the framework that we already are totally swimming in which is just this kind of objective materialistic kind of view of what the world really is like I like to do spiritual stuff but really you know when the bills are due I know what the world actually is which is that it's you know vertical people on a round thing like stressing each other out Zen is not trying to say oh really it's the opposite of that it's trying to say do you see that that's an idea that's not actually touching your own direct experience in this moment of being that you don't even know when it started or what's inside and what's outside so we're trying and it's impossible so that's why it lasts for thousands of years this tradition because we're trying to use some framework to kind of dislodge a framework to just enter the stillness and reality of the feeling of actually being free of all of our ideas about it including I have a body I have a mind I you it so we're not throwing anything away we're just trying to find all that space underneath the framework so that we can live with more space and ease and but not be stuck in that new one you know not be stuck on the thing that's supposed to help get us unstuck that's the old problem with Zen that's been trying to talk our way out for a long time and say you know in this tradition we don't use words because any words will be confusing and then we go on and on about how we don't do so he goes to the cave to sit for nine years facing the wall to just abide in this wonder in this be in this I don't know and growing his strength to tolerate that I think part of why we go back to like oh I know what the world is and maybe even it's bad and stressful and small but at least I know what it is you know and as we open and connect with the more ungraspable aliveness and the wonder and this I this kind of truth that nobody knows what's happening here and we all just got here that's kind of like a lot you know to to meet especially when the emperor is looking right at you so we grow this kind of strength or composure or great patience and and in the tradition fundamentally what that patience or composure is for is so that we can actually open to how amazing it is to be alive we're kind of like recoiling from that a little bit so then we make the world small and wonder why am I suffering in this small world it's like well because it's kind of scary to just let go of everything and just plunge into this moment not knowing what's going to happen or who you are but it's but you can trust it so he sat for nine years growing his wonder and growing the composure to allow the wonder to keep growing they have to grow at the same speed and that's maybe this kind of wide-eyed person who can't snap out of the oneness it's like oh your composure didn't grow quite as fast as your wonder so we take care of both so Suzuki Roshi of this of this story of Bodhidharma says Bodhidharma went by saying I don't know revealed himself to the emperor as someone without form or name who was just sitting without thinking without doing anything being with everything that's a really important point for Suzuki Roshi in this kind of unconstructed being alive everything's included that's not like something you're doing by yourself the aliveness is the whole field of alive that's what our life really is actually like it's not separate from the stuff in it so being with everything he's just everything and says I don't know but the emperor and and the fuller stories versions of the story elaborate how disappointed the emperor is in this answer so he says but the emperor wanted to meet someone wise and powerful and learned and very helpful so this question and answer was not so successful in the story you know so Bodhidharma goes off and then the emperor later you know realizes what a treasure that was that he was offered and tries to send some people to get Bodhidharma back but they can't find him because he's in a cave and he's everything he's the people looking for him so I'm not going to find him so the emperor wanted to meet somebody great but he just got this I don't know so then Suzuki Roshi says this other phrase that I've been sitting with and working with trying to grow into we should understand ourselves in two ways as a particular person and as someone who has no name nobody and no mind we should understand ourselves and fully live from this understanding of ourself in two ways as a particular person responsible for our life and as this being this aliveness that has no form and no name and so in Zen we tend to you know we chant like every day in the temple we say no no eyes no ears no nose no tongue nobody no mind no form no name we're really exercising that part but it's not because we are going to live there but just because to come into balance to grow that side of what our life is do you know what I mean maybe you don't have that problem maybe you need to grow that make your bed inside you know