Ordinary Mind is the Way

Thank you for listening to UPIA's Dharma podcast, an extraordinary series of talks from some of the finest teachers in the world. I'm Joan Halifax, founder of the UPIA's End Center, and we're happy to make these podcasts available to you. Please consider making a donation so we can offer these recordings freely. You'll find a donation button on our podcast page. And thank you so much. This is Dharma Podcast at DharmaPodcast.org. This is episode number 2663. It was recorded on September 23rd, 2026, and it is titled, Ordinary Mind Is The Way. The speaker for this episode is Koshin Flint Sparks. I'll continue to extend the welcome that Koto began, and thank you for coming out on a little bit of a messy afternoon. For those of you online, I don't know what your afternoons or mornings or evenings are like, but we are blessed to have you with us always. So thank you for being here. I also thank everyone in this room who has contributed to making something like this possible. And thank you, Roshi, for the foundation for all of it, for its continuation and for its foundation. All those things that Koto was reading about. He said they were somewhat impressive, but what I feel most grateful for right now is that I'm here. I'm here with you and these people in this place and with such wonderful teachers and with Roshi's guidance. It's quite a wonderful thing. I do want to, as Koto said, in some ways, offer a few words that would not exactly usher us into, but say a good word for Joshua as we approach practice period because Zhaozhou, the name in Chinese or Joshua in Japanese, is the teacher that will be the central focus for this wonderful practice period. And we have great teachers coming to talk about Joshua, and I'll use the Japanese name here and his teachings. And as a result, I'm not going to give you a lot of information about Joshua because that's not actually the function of my talk tonight. You'll get a lot of that. I am going to mention three stories, three ancestor stories. Sometimes we call them koans, but we're not going to go into them in a way that you would normally go into a koan. Think of them as ancestor stories that highlight certain aspects of our practice. And the thing I want you to really attend to right here in the beginning is this talk is not about Joshua. It's about you and about me and about the way we practice together. These are just stories that illuminate this. I was just thinking, and so many times when I teach and we're speaking about a special ancestor like this or a person of great attainment, students will come to me and ask some version of this question, how did they get like that? How did they get like that? And my answer is always the same. They did what you just did a few minutes ago. I don't care what the tradition is, what the philosophies are in every wisdom tradition, masters will set in some upright, dignified posture and silence and stillness in whatever form that it comes. They'll do something exactly like you did. You have the practice. But then of course you know what the follow up question is or the statement. Well, they were different. They're special. And that's the most painful error. Joshua, the Buddha, all the Tibetan teachers, the Roshis, everyone that you will hear about was born, has a body, had a body. They grew up in a family. You know, we think of these exemplars. You don't think they were an infant, a toddler, a kid in school maybe if they went to school at all. A teenager for God's sakes, you know, and all the things that go with that. They had the burden of their conditioning, the weight of their family and culture, and on and on. In other words, every one of these special people, think of this special, had exactly the same things to work with, the same elements that you do. And they did exactly the same practice. You're not missing anything. It's all right here. But it's very natural I think for a lot of us to look elsewhere, you know, for something better. Like it's not here, it's like over there. Or it's later, not now, or under better conditions maybe. You know, certainly not. Because the primary thing that students also bring, not only is, who are these people, what do they do, and all that is, they say, this can't be it. Like really? But you know, whatever amazing thing might appear in your practice, and many things do for many of you, I know, I talked to you, or whatever revolutionary insight you might have, or an experience, some way in which you unexpectedly change. All of those things can only appear here, with these people in this body, under these conditions. There's no other place it could happen. And no other situation it could happen. This is what we have. It's what we always have. It's what we only have. And it's actually everything. But we don't see it that way. At least not all the time. But usually, I don't know about you, but usually people come to practice, finally, because they have some great difficulty, and they can't, like, okay, okay, I'll practice, you know, they can't, nothing else is going to work. Or some great inspiration. They see a person, and they see something happening that they think, wow, what is that, you know? And they want to learn something about it. And this is the foundation of what we call way-seeking mind. You've heard that before, most of you. It's the mind that seeks the way, or the heart that seeks the way. And Susie Kiroshi would often talk about, to his students, he said, what is your inmost request? Is that a great phrase? What's your inmost request? The thing that you're asking most deeply. And so the thread that I want to use to follow in these stories is a phrase that Roshi just used a couple of days ago in the teachings in Love and Death. Mujo no taigen. Actualization of the supreme way in daily life. Mujo, I think it is. Sorry, I didn't say it correctly. Mujo, or Mujodo, refers to the supreme way, or the highest path. And taigen means embodiment. Actualization. Manifestation of the supreme way. So this is what I want to talk about. The actualization of the highest elements, the highest fruits of practice in daily life here, in this, in our lives. There's a wonderful teaching story that I heard a long time ago who knows if it has any historical value, but it's interesting anyway. And it happened during monsoon. And the Buddha disappeared. All of the, you know, everybody's together and the Buddha like disappeared. And so toward the end of the monsoon he came back. And so they asked him the usual kind of respectful kind of thing like, dude, where'd you go? And he said, well, I was on retreat. And they said, on retreat, like, what were you practicing? And he said, and upon a sati, which is like the full awareness of breathing is the four foundations of mindfulness with breath, which is like beginner's practice. And they said, but you're the Buddha in the light. And why would you go on retreat? And why would you do the beginner's practice? And he said, because it's a wonderful way to live and embodied practice, the breath, simple. It was the supreme way. It was taigen, the embodiment, and yujodo in the supreme way. This simple, clear practice. So how can we actualize the supreme way in our daily life? And Joshua, I think that most of his teachings were about this, about how to actualize these things. And so the three stories that I'm going to talk about, the first one is often titled Ordinary Ways to Mind. And then another one about washing dishes and another one about a bridge. And the reason I'm going to use these is because the first one, Ordinary Mind is the way, is a story about when he was with his teacher. It's not about his teachings, it's with his teacher. The second one is when he is working with his students. And the third one is about when he was old and someone challenged him. And so it's like this arc of actualization of practice in everyday life. So I'm just going to introduce you to Joshua a little bit. In the late 90s, I can't remember when I was in a psychotherapy training and we were in a retreat, a forest retreat in Oregon, which is actually a Tibetan retreat center. And the teacher brought a llama, isn't it a llama? Lodro? I don't know if you ever met him, but he was quite an amazing first generation teacher from Tibet. And I was just about to take Jucai, so this must have been 1994 or 5 with my teacher, Blind Charterman. And he was going to do an empowerment the next day, so you take refuge. And I thought, should I be doing this? You know, like cheating on my teacher? And so I asked to have a meeting with him. Several students were asking various things, but my meeting was, I told him what the situation was, and I said, is this okay to do? I was very new. Am I doing something improper? And he laughed at me, you know, he big laugh, you know, and he said, no, I just introduced you to Buddha. He said, I'll just introduce you to Buddha. So I'm introducing you to Joshua. So here's the first story. It comes often as Case 19 in the Gateless Gate, which is a collection of koans. It's a marvelous, marvelous story. And you can spend a lot of time on it. We're not going to spend a lot of time, but we'll spend some time. So Joshua comes to me, teacher, Nansen, or Nanswan, he's a wonderful, powerful teacher, and asks the question that students ask, like, what is the way? And Nansen answered, the ordinary mind is the way. And Joshua says, well, then should I direct myself toward it or not? And his teacher says, well, if you try to turn toward it, you go against it. And Joshua says, really, like, if I don't turn toward it, how do I know it's the way? And Nansen answers, the way does not belong to knowing or not knowing. Knowing is delusion. Not knowing is a blank consciousness. When you have reached the true way beyond all doubt, you will find it is vast and boundless. It's a great empty firmament. How can it be talked about on a level of right or wrong? See, that's a whole darn bit talked there. And of course, as these stories often end, Joshua was then enlightened. But actually, in the commentary, Mu Mu's commentary, at the end of the commentary, it says, even though Joshua had come to realization, he will have to delve into it for another 30 years before he can fully realize it. Like, there's the truth, really, you know. Yeah, he had a bit of an opening, and then you have to like, you have to take the opening, you have to use it, you know, to keep your practice. So, there's a student saying, how do I practice? And the teacher says, ordinary mind is the way that you practice. And he said, well, okay, how do I do that? How do I direct myself toward it? And he said, you try that, and you're going to go the wrong way. He said, well, then what do I do? And then Nansen says, the way is not about knowing something or not knowing something. Knowing something is going to be a delusion, not knowing is like consciousness. But when you've reached the way beyond all doubt, and now we're talking about this actualization of the supreme way, you'll find it as vast and as empty as the balanced firmament. How could it be talked about on the level of right and wrong? So, this ordinary mind, you know, you think, well, my ordinary mind does not seem, but I don't think he's saying conventional mind. Ordinary here is a little bit different. And besides, most of us come to practice to discover extraordinary mind, don't we? It's like, I want to be whatever, something special. Because remember, this can't be it. You want to be able to do something and create this fantasy outcome we long for, to get rid of the painful things and get the good things. It's a little simplistic to say that, but most of us carry this sense of lack, or lacking something. And that's some of what Joshu is saying. What way do I go? In a commentary on this, John Tarrant says, ordinary means there is no need to add or take away from what is going on in the mind. Each portion of life is a whole of life. There's nothing wrong with what is in the mind except the sense that something is wrong. In this way, simplicity turns to a form of compassion. I love that statement. Simplicity turns to a form of compassion. Our foundational awareness mind. He's saying there's nothing lacking. Peter Hershok talking about it's here, he says, the path of enlightening all beings. Listen to this. He doesn't say the path of enlightened beings. The path of enlightening all beings is just ordinary mind. The best ordinary mind, of course, it's ordinary mind with a difference. The absence of any boundary or horizon on the other side of which lies something more or better or mystically complete. There's a simplicity and a presence and a fullness to our primary consciousness that's always with us that never abandons us. One more reflection and this is from Roshi Joan. Sitting quietly, we begin to recognize how much of our life is organized around the assumption that fulfillment exists elsewhere. We imagine that wisdom lies ahead of us. That peace belongs to some future condition. That awakening is waiting at the end of a path we have not yet completed. The mind means towards continuously reaching toward what is next, often overlooking the complete reality that is already present. All the things I've been saying. This is Muzho, the supreme way. Which can sound kind of like lofty or distant. It does Japanese. It's Muzho, it's the supreme way. But Joshu's turning it upside down. He flips it. The supreme way is not a special altered state of consciousness if you're every day. Unmanipulated mind. The mind that feels hungry, gets tired, is clear, is busy, is distracted by this and that. How could you open to the conditioned ground of being, the unconditioned ground of being, the primary consciousness, whatever you want to call it, by busily working to manipulate your consciousness to some better condition? You don't create better conditions for the uncondition. It may sound a little strange, but our practice isn't about perfection or purification and certainly not of the personality. I'll tell you again, the embodiment of the supreme way is not met by escaping ordinary life, but by being fully awake in it, with it. And when we stop seeking something holier or loftier than this present moment, our ordinary mind naturally opens on its own. As the manifestation of our Buddha nature. Don Sean famously said, just this is it. The same kind of teaching. By the way, the verse that goes with this kaon is quite beautiful. The spring flowers, the moon and autumn, the cool breezes of summer, the winter snow. If idle concerns do not cloud the mind, this is a person's happiest season. It says a man's happiest season. I changed it to a person's happiest season. Confucius talked about this too. Confucius wrote, the way is at hand, but people are looking for it afar. Farmers are using it every day without being aware of it. We cannot be separated from the way, even for an instant. We cannot be separated from the way. We cannot be separated from the way, even for an instant. What we can be separated from is not the way. Ordinary mind is the way. And I true, I mean your everyday thoughts, the mind that holds all your thoughts, that come and go, that mind. Story number two. This is Joshua teaching. This is case number seven in the Gateless Gate. Here's the case. The monk asked Joshua in all earnestness, and by the way these stories in this collection are great. They always say they ask in all earnestness, which is actually important. I've just entered the monastery. I beg you master please give me instructions, you know, waiting for like, sin teaching. And Joshua says, have you eaten your rice gruel yet? The monk says, yes I have. He says, then wash your bowls. The monk attains some realization. It's a quite simple story, quite a simple situation. In Mu'mun's commentary he said, it's very interesting, it's one of those strange zen sounding things. Joshua opened his mouth and showed his gallbladder, his heart and his liver. If the monk hearing it did not readily grasp the fact he would mistake a bell for a pot. In other words, in that simple bit of compassion, remember the simple compassion? Joshua like opened himself completely. And if the monk didn't get it, that he was opening himself in ultimate compassion by saying, please wash your bowl. Then he would mistake a bell for a pot. You wouldn't see what's actually happening. You know, most of us, and as a psychotherapist, I certainly see this a lot. Most of us come to practice what I call a curative fantasy. If I do this, then this will happen. It's a personal myth that we use to explain what we think is wrong with us in our lives, and we imagine how we're going to make it better. The spiritual practice is going to do that. Barry Majid, who's one of Joko Beck's Dharma heirs, is also a psychoanalyst. In New York, he said, the fundamental delusion we face on the cushion is not some metaphysical abstraction. It's the all to down-to-earth experience of a person divided against herself and the support of a curative fantasy. We divide ourselves when we, like Nansen said, if you turn toward it, you go against it. And the monk in this story was looking past his immediate life to find enlightenment, and Joshu says, eating porridge, washing your bowl, aren't chores that you do on the way to enlightenment in the Zendo somewhere. Eating the gruel and washing the bowl is enlightenment in action. Once again, he flips it. Roshi Joan again. When realization remains something we hope to acquire, practice is subtly organized around lack. We sit because something is missing. We meditate because we want to awaken. We practice because we hope eventually to become what we are not. And she's referring to Dogen. And Dogen overturns the entire framework. Practice does not arise from deficiency. It arises from completeness. It arises from completeness. I was always shocked when I first started being around the temple and watching the Jukai ceremony where people take the auspices, precepts. Many of you have done that and some of you have seen it. And I don't know about your ceremony, but the ones that I was initiated in and heard at San Francisco's Incident are almost the very first thing that is said in the invocation is, In faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. Is that, wait a minute. In faith that we are Buddha, that's the entrance. I thought in faith that we're kind of this smuck. You know, we start practicing so we can become a Buddha. No, in faith that we are Buddha, we enter Buddha's way. That really got my attention. And I think this is what Roshi is saying here. And Mujirō no Taigen is precisely this. The total collapse of the division between what we think of as spiritual practice and watching the dishes or whatever it's going to be. Those of you who worked in the kitchen know this or sweeping the floors. One of the students in Madison, Kōtō mentioned the open door Zen community, Suzanne Kilkis, who's the lay teacher there. She asked me, I can't remember how long ago. This was probably 10 or 12 years ago. We had a topic for an intensive retreat and she said, what's the background for this? I'm not sure what you're talking about. And this is the email that I wrote her. The only reason I have it is because she saved it and said, this is what you wrote in the email. We tend to think we are a problem to be solved. Consciously or unconsciously we have this uneasy feeling that something is missing. Something's not quite right. From a psychological point of view we think the problems are conditioning. If we could only identify and then work with our conditioning, then we might find relief from our shaky identity and establish a strong sense of self that is robust and healthy. From a spiritual point of view, we hope to either affirm a belief system we can rely on forever or dedicate ourselves to a set of practices that will eventually end our suffering and assuage the