The Friendliness of Not Knowing

This podcast is offered by the San Francisco Zen Center on the web at www.sfcc.org. Our public programs are made possible by donations from people like you. Thank you San Francisco Zen Center for inviting me to give a talk. So many people have helped me so many along the way. I just can't name them all. One person I cannot fail to mention is Shunryu Suzuki, one of the founders of the Zen Feast in North America, and definitely a core main cause of my being here today. I also want to respectfully thank my previous and now deceased teachers Leila Smith-Bakhorst and Steve Stuckey. They both encouraged me when I was most unwell and new to practice. There have been others too, but they would be delighted with the noticeable transformation I experienced in both body and mind, do mainly to Zen practice. And as important as well is to thank you all for being in this room with me, as well as those online. The topic of my talk today is not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Before going further into the topic, I would like to tell you that I come to do this Dharma talk from a very humble state of mind. While I was writing it, I noticed how much the habitual reflex of saying, I know, is rooted in my small mind. Let me have compassion for myself and for all. I'm also going to first translate, not knowing is a friendly state of mind in French. I call doing this the an-lore signature, and I try to remember to do it in all of my Dharma talks as a mark of respect, a nod of honor to my native language and culture. 23 formative years of living somewhere else is a major contribution to my current being. So in French, the words not knowing is a friendly state of mind translates as ne pas savoir est un état d'esprit amcal. The original phrase, not knowing is most intimate, appears in several collections of koans. In the original transmission of the koan, it reads, Gishen asked, where are you going? Faye and replied, on an ongoing pilgrimage. Gishen said, why do you go on a pilgrimage? Faye and replied, I don't know. Gishen said, not knowing is most intimate. At these words, Faye and instantly experienced enlightenment. Many, many very good Dharma talks have been written on this topic of not knowing. And when I started to write this Dharma talk, at times I really was quite ashamed of myself, a relatively recently ordained Zen priest for tackling a topic so often discussed by seasoned Dharma teachers. At the same time, each person is unique, and each Dharma talk reflects the teacher's own orientation as a Dharma friend of mine titled this recent Dharma talk. In order to maintain some flexibility a little bit with the sentence, I thought it might be useful to talk about friendly state of mind as well. A state of mind often changes depending on what's happening around us and whether we're in small or big mind modes kind of. In 2006, Norman Fisher wrote in a talk posted on the Every Day Zen website. Every Day Zen is Norman Sangha. So here it is. Many teachers have made this one phrase, not knowing is most intimate, the heart of their teaching, repeating it over and over again. But what does it mean and how can we make use of it for our lives? And then he also adds later in that talk, first of all, let me back up and say something basic about Zen practice. As one of my teachers used to put it, Zen is a practice of phrases. The practice of phrases is not limited to Zen. It is common in almost all religious traditions. Now the way I see it, it's completely human that our state of mind is often more about mundane stuff than about big mind where this Zen not knowing might usually be experienced. I mean, maybe, maybe not. I don't know. Also one might say that since Zen overall is a system addressing suffering, it presents itself as knowing sometimes rather than not knowing. I mean, that's an interesting puzzle. What I call, but I've heard it called, a Zen paradox. It encourages us to keep a light touch. I live outside of a monastery in an environment that is often not so conducive to big mind state. And it's often a daily struggle to remain in the friendly, in that state, in the friendly big mind state. So as I was writing this talk and sharing about it with another of my friends, I told her how writing this talk made me more aware of how often I say I know during the course of the day. And she was responding to this. And I turned out, I turned to what her saying, I know, I know. We both burst out laughing. And we shared a friendly state of mind there. It is true that we need to know, of course, certain things at times, I mean, in appearance, need, at least when I was a parent, I needed to know where my young child was all the time. I need to know how I will pay the rent and so on. It's one thing to know about mounting necessary daily facts. And it's another to burst out with strong opinions about things that are not so sure. When someone is telling me that they know this or that, I can become quite annoyed. I often tell myself that the less is said, the better. None of us like to be around people who seem to know everything a lot of the time. I try to remember it as an opportunity to practice my patience. But then I'm afraid that when somebody asks the extreme know it all, then my patience is quite limited. And I experienced this recently with an autistic person caring on and on about his favorite topic. That said, the fact is, in general, I often do not know how much another person actually does know or what they're going through. So my two conclusions here are one, I strive to be less a blowhard myself. And two, I want to be more forgiving of others and remain in a friendly state of mind. So here's a story about this from my childhood. When I was a young child, most everyone around me and especially my mother and many of her family who lived around us had ideas of how I should behave, how I ought to be. I really like that the word be is in the word behave. I felt much more comfortable with people who did not think they knew everything about me. And at that time they were few and far between. I was simply unable to be and behave in a way that would have made sense to the people around me. This, no matter how hard I tried, it made me very sad and also had great effects on my well-being. I studied to eat less, I hardly slept, I turned in bed in English listening to every little sound, thoughts of suicide and turned my mind quite regularly. I was a very troubled child. Now keep in mind that I was later diagnosed autistic and my childhood behaviors and ways were quite autistic. One time I swam away in the Atlantic Ocean, by the Atlantic Ocean, with the thought in mind of eventually drowning. Luckily a small fisherman boat brought me back to the shore. Through those years other people thinking they knew how I was and should be caused me a lot of pain. Now here I want to bear in mind at all times that it takes two to tangle and I definitely was half of the dance. I understood after I was diagnosed and had started a Zen practice that I blamed my poor mother for all of my autistic ways. I find it very interesting that one of the very first people after the fisherman along the way who helped save me sat Zazen, a rarity at that time in my overarching Catholic town. When my parents were at a loss about me I went to live with her for six months. That's when, well anyway, I got strong enough a little bit to get going. Also I ought to let you know that my mother was anxiously waiting for me when the boat brought me back to the shore. And as I was remembering this a few days ago I just cried and cried like I hadn't in a long time. It was the dark of morning and I had to resort to my old habit of biting into a pillow in my younger years. It used to be my own flesh. No, I'm not going to do it that I bit into. I will end this story by telling that to this day I regularly encounter that the same state of mind with many people assuming that because I'm autistic they know this or that about me. And they're just not the friends I want to have. Not knowing is a friendly state of mind. The importance of developing a state of mind of not knowing extends to everything and everyone, whether they are disabled or not. And in ways I just don't know. I'm so fortunate that I'm around people with a Zen practice. Really, it... And we all realize together little by little, or not our faster, not knowing is a friendly state of mind. Friendship is a kind of intimacy and intimacy is a definite source of comfort. As is often the case with the understanding of phrases, I bet each of you in this room has a different understanding of the words in the phrase not knowing is a friendly state of mind. During the Q&A part of my dharma talks at my own little sangha, aatsit, I'm often struck by the different perspectives that people come up with, how interesting they are. There is often a lack of guile in autistic people who mostly make up that sangha. But by not always being so sure we know something we're certainly allowing for real friendships to develop and that's no small matter. Jack Cornfield writes in his 2015 book The Wise Heart, be aware of all the thoughts and opinions you have about how should be, how they should be. Now recognize that you don't really know. Maybe the wrong thing will lead to something better. You don't know. Cornfield's last sentence, maybe the wrong thing will lead to something better, is an example of something I hadn't thought about that I did not know. For me, remaining open to the possibility that I do not always know includes at times what some classic dharma texts say. One common feeling during Zen practice and life in general might be to focus on only one side and forget the larger picture, or maybe not forget it, but you're not talking about it at that time. Anyway, from the very beginning of my practice, I have often felt uneasy with what sometimes is written in a classic dharma text. And I bet you are too at times. And my hope is that you do not stop your Zen practice as soon as some sticky stuff shows up. There is a lot of wisdom in the texts overall. So here again is a place where the not knowing state of mind can be your friend. An example in my experience is that in most Zen meditation settings, there is an assumption that startle reactions might reveal a practitioner's lack of mental stillness. In the awakening of faith texts traditionally attributed to as baghosa, the text says that one who practices the samadhi of suchness diligently and wholeheartedly will gain 10 advantages in this life. I'm not going to read here all 10 points. Only the 10th one, as it is exactly relevant to my point, that we can never be so sure of anything. It says, upon attaining samadhi, the practitioner will not be startled by any sound from without. As an autistic person, this reads as a pronouncement that is somewhat blind to neurodivergence. And it also motivated me to speak on this topic. I often tense up and may startle quite often when there is a sudden sound. I mean, after so much time on the cushion, I really can completely understand how this came to be written. After all, it is true that I am visibly much more grounded and calmer than I used to be. And in fact, it might be difficult to observe that what's going on in my body, how I tense up and how I jump sometimes. My partner of the last 17 years says that I'm the most sensory sensitive person he has ever met. And he knows many autistic people. He thinks my brain should be wired for science. My entire body clenches, my entire body, when doors are slammed, sneezing happens or when the clappers are hit at the end of kinhin. And this does not go away. There is a New York Times bestseller book published in 2016 written by a 13 years old Japanese autistic boy, which is entitled The Reason Why I Jump by Naoki Iigashida. Based on my personal experience and those of others, I encourage you to trust that not knowing is a friendly state of mind just is going to be naturally come to be understood when practicing and repeatedly spending time on the cushion. There is no need to do other than zazen, no need, zazen again and again. I hope my words have not hurt anyone, my big fear always. I mean for all my dama talks to be first about encouraging people to do zazen, this crucial decision that all of us here have already chosen to do. I'm pretty sure you could almost say I know that zazen is helpful for most states of body and mind. And I'm going to end with a few words from Zanke Blanchardman in the ZEN of not knowing. Cultivate your beginner's mind, be willing not to be an expert, be willing not to know, not knowing is nearest, not knowing is most intimate. And I add it is friendly. Thank you very much friends. Merci beaucoup les amis. Oh, I forgot to chant at the beginning. Q&A now. Oh, okay, Q&A. So if anyone has a question beyond the car. It was wonderful. Thank you. It's wonderful to share Branch, our mountain source song, Go With You. And it's amazing in the year and a half that I've known you, how I watch you stretch and growing and growing confidence. And I loved the sensitivity that you bring into your lectures. So I thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you, Kat. If I may say something, I am bursting to say something. It's a year and a half. For those who have known me a lot longer, it's also something else. Hi, Ann-Laure. Thank you so much for your lovely talk. I wanted to ask you if you had any tips for us about how to stay in that friendly state of not knowing. Is there a way that when you hear that I know show up, you're able to truncate it or find some place where you don't know. So I was just curious about your process for working with that mind that always wants to feel certain about things. You know, I don't know. You know, I mean, when I was recounting this incident, I tried to practice Zazen with that guy who was talking. But that did not do it. I think it's better to pay attention to what is being said. Listen. Maybe I'm going to try that next. We'll see if I ever see him again. I don't know. Thank you. Thank you. So, you know, when I first started practicing and still, you know, I was maybe motivated by this idea that there were certain like hang-ups or patterns or habits that I had that were making me suffer and that this practice could help with that. But then, you know, when you think about neurodivergence, right, there's this idea that certain patterns that, you know, may have upsides and downsides are also just maybe wired in to our brains. So how do we sort of distinguish between, okay, which things are sort of maybe conditioning that we can work through and which things are just inbuilt and how do we work with all of that without, with the proper discernment and also without like kind of getting on our own case too much? Yeah. Well, that part about being on your own case too much, I think is very in my experience and that of my partner and it seems it's quite neurodiverse thing to do, to beat oneself up a lot, you know, like really. And then the other thing, you know, I don't know exactly, you know, all I know from my own experience is that Zazen has helped me tremendously with that. And that's all I know. Yes. Thank you for your talk. I was wondering, is there a distinction between not knowing state of mind and living with uncertainty? Or are they the same thing? Very interesting question. Living with uncertainty, not knowing state of mind. Yeah, you see, that's a new perspective I hadn't thought. And you know, there's something to it, definitely. Thank you. All the things I do not know. For right off the bat here, I don't know right off the bat. I would have to think about it more. But they definitely seems to have some similarities in me. I hear what you say, but I don't know. They do have differences too. Okay. Sorry to not be very helpful. Do you think Zazen is universally helpful for all kinds of minds? All kinds of minds? That's a really good question. That's a really good question. I'm not sure. I hear there is many different types of minds. And what do I know say about, you know, like schizophrenia, or I don't know, you know, you know. Thank you. Thank you so much for beautiful talk today. I find it quite auspicious because just this afternoon, while we were cleaning the dining room floor, I said to somebody, I said, you know, I'm just going to start with saying, I don't know without knowing how I was going to move forward with this practice. I stated out loud. I'm just going to say, I don't know. And you now help me understand the connection between what I really desire and that is to always practice friendliness and openness, especially to those experiences where I find myself being certain about something that causes separation that I know causes harm in myself and others. So you help me understand how I can move forward with practicing. And I just want to thank you also for bringing Blanche's voice and spirit into the room. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Anlor. We have a question that was typed into the chat from Jenna. Jenna asks, you talk about how you started to understand the behaviors you had attributed to your upbringing and your mother were actually more autistic traits. How did that knowing change your relationship with your family? It made me really have a lot more compassion for my mother. I mean, when I realized this, I actually, my mother lived in France, died in France during COVID several years ago. And I actually started to talk, at least to call her back regularly. When I had him, I was really, so that's how it really meant it. I mean, she was really upset at me for not taking care of her. But I talked to her regularly. I remember calling and having 17 digit phone numbers to type in in order to get through to where she was in her hospital place, or, you know, all the, like here in the United States, you know, where people, this kind of thing. So that's all. Oh, and one more thing, Jenna. It's important to me. It doesn't matter that much. But my mom, well, it's quite very autistic to, for children not to say, I love you to their parents. And parents are absolutely despair over that sometimes. And I was completely the same. And I never told my, and my mom was also the same in despair over it. And guess what? I was able to tell her at some point, I love you. I love you. Thank you so much for your talk. When you were talking about the sensory reactions to noises and stimulus, I relate a lot. And I found sometimes that when I've been sitting Zazen for a long time, those reactions actually become more intense. I feel more sensitive to sounds and it like will vibrate through my whole body. And in those times, I feel that there's even more a feeling of intimacy. And I wanted to hear your thoughts about the relationship between that reaction and intimacy. You know, I, and I totally get it that it opens you up Zazen to more. But then there is that the only way for me that I find to get through it is to embrace, to, to, you know, heal in a way to, I don't know, to, to stay with it, to pay attention. And intimacy is, I think, also that part of staying with things close to them and embracing them kind of. Does that make sense? Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. You mentioned the book by the 13 year old Japanese boy. This is why I jump. I read that book a few years ago. What struck me is he, I don't know if you mentioned he's completely nonverbal. He's autistic and completely nonverbal. So this was my interpretation or what I got from it was he was able to really say, this is what my inner world is like, and I can't express this in any other way. So I was wondering if there's anything that you would want everyone to know about being autistic and that may not be so obvious in how, because he really got it across. This is how I want the world to perceive me. And is there something that you would like people to know? Well, thank you for asking that. And